What You Don't Know Can Cost You with Paul Conway

How confident are you that your lettings business is fully compliant?

If your answer is "pretty confident", this episode might make you think again.

In this episode of The Viking Chats, Kristjan is joined by Paul Conway, founder of Yuno, for a fascinating discussion about one of the biggest challenges facing the private rented sector: the ever-growing complexity of compliance.

Paul's journey into property is anything but conventional. From working in the oil industry to property development, co-living and ultimately building one of the UK's most sophisticated compliance platforms, his career has been driven by solving operational problems that most people simply accept as part of the job.

And nowhere is that more apparent than in today's lettings landscape.

What starts as a conversation about property licensing quickly develops into a much broader discussion about the future of property management. Licensing schemes, planning regulations, fire safety, Awaab's Law, the Decent Homes Standard, Minimum Energy Efficiency Standards and the Renters' Rights Bill all point in the same direction.

Compliance is no longer something agents can simply keep up with manually.

Kristjan and Paul explore how regulation has evolved from a handful of legal requirements into a constantly moving target, with councils introducing new licensing schemes, changing boundaries, updating requirements and increasing enforcement powers.

The reality is that what you don't know can now carry significant financial and legal consequences.

The discussion also tackles one of the industry's biggest challenges: demonstrating value.

As regulation becomes more technical, letting agents are doing more work than ever before, much of it invisible to landlords. Kristjan argues that one of the profession's biggest mistakes has been making complex work look easy, while Paul explains why better technology doesn't replace expertise—it gives agents the tools to apply it consistently and at scale.

Together they discuss why smaller agencies may soon find it impossible to manage compliance manually, how technology can reduce risk without replacing people, and why educating landlords has become just as important as understanding the legislation itself.

This isn't an episode designed to create fear.

It's a conversation about preparation.

Because the pace of regulatory change isn't slowing down, and the agencies that thrive over the next decade won't necessarily be the biggest.

They'll be the ones who understand the risks, embrace the right technology and stay ahead of what's coming next.

If you work in lettings, property management or the wider private rented sector, this episode is essential listening.

Because sometimes, what you don't know really can cost you.

Transcript

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chats podcast. I'm delighted to be joined today by Paul Conway of Juno. Paul, good to see you. How you doing, pal? Um we are this is going to be quite a short episode, uh, on Viking chat terms because if you stick a Viking and a Scot in a, in a room, it's gonna get wild. Too much talking happens. Um, but, uh, yeah. So, uh, this is going to be a short episode than normal. Um, but so let's crack on. Um, so Paul, for those who haven't met you before, who have no idea what you know, is, uh, let's get into that quickly. So a quick bit about you and your journey to, you know, let's, let's start there. You want me to go all the way back? I mean, you know, in like a Hollywood flashback, like quick scenario. Okay, fine. Um, so yeah, I'm excited. Go for the top hits. Yeah. I was exile industry onshore, uh, then offshore oil rigs, uh, built a portfolio of properties in Scotland because they're all about five pounds each. Um, then came to London. I did for Property developments in Chelsea. I thought it was really cool for a while. Um, then created a co-living company in southwest London. So that was a clap and rent to rent model, but done nice with like parties and, you know, like, essentially like imagine like a student coming there just came out of university and they need somewhere to live in London. We work at home, we work for home. There we go. Problem solved. We home. Yeah, we home, we home. We should go to work. We called it Caledonia, you know, basically just called it. I can't imagine why. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then through that, we were like, this is an absolute disaster because we started a few properties and we're like, okay, cool. We're from the oil industry. We understand fire and planned maintenance and compliance and stuff. And then like we spoke to one council, I'm like, okay, right. Let's just and then we went into another council. Like, this is an absolute disaster. Like why, why is why is it different? That makes no sense. Um, so then and then from there, we're like, well, now that we're really cool and we run proper development in Chelsea and, you know, and a co-living business, we thought the best idea was to then run a compliance business. I mean, why not? Yeah, exactly. We're just looking for that sexy other job on your resume, your sexist shit up a little bit. So, so so that's what we did. And, and then, uh, me and my business partner went our separate ways. And then we had created this consultancy business that originally started with, uh, in Hammersmith and Fulham, uh, getting licence application done for Martin Parsons and Douglas and Gordon. And that's where it kind of all came out. Uh, we started. And how long ago was this? When was this? Roughly eight and a half years ago. Yeah, yeah. So so so the business has been going for quite a while, uh, predominantly as a consultancy business to start. And then about four years ago, we started building the data set on, on really complicated legislation around licensing and planning and all the rest of the stuff. Uh, we integrated to repay Savills became our first client, uh, with that integration. And then we built an enterprise solution for them integrated to reap it. Um, and now we're there. Nice. So that's it? That's the whirlwind tour. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for joining us on the Viking Chat. Told you it's going to be a quick one. So, look, you and I sat down before this because, um, I wanted to have a look as base for, you know, you and I have known each other for a few years. We've always talked. I've always known. I've always known fundamentally what you do. Yeah. Uh, and the area that you operate in, but until this morning, didn't have a really detailed understanding of that. And obviously what that offering does evolves, particularly with what you've built out. And it was really good to see your tech today. So look, I'm aware we're on a really short time frame. So I want to make sure we kind of get into what I think is the more interesting stuff of what we've talked about this morning. So look, so, so, you know, I think if an agent has heard of you before, they will fundamentally be all right. Cool. your property licensing platform. And I think I think that is a big hook of what you guys are. Yeah. Because that's what they understand is there is their highest risk problem in their business. Um, has just got exponentially more complex to kind of understand and solve. Um, and it's a huge risk and they know they need to solve it, but they, it's the next steps that we talked about today. Yeah. I mean, I think, look, I don't think there's an agent out there that is in any way a fan of any property licensing schemes. But I think as more and more schemes are rolling out, we're all getting exposed to more of them working in London like we do. We've got a relatively small portfolio, but across quite a broad part of London. So we deal with eight different boroughs. Yeah. Yeah. And the joys that that brings, you know, and as you highlighted, we've not just got to know the ridiculous nuances between those eight schemes just in terms of the technical Requirements. Um, but they keep on rolling out new schemes as you highlighted as well. A lot of them also roll out alterations or updates to their schemes, which aren't necessarily all that visible or obvious as they happen. Mhm. Um, and yeah, you know, the reality is, you know, looking at the, looking at the licensing landscape, you know, I wouldn't be surprised within the next five years if pretty much all UK PRS stock is licensed. Well, I don't, I don't that wouldn't surprise me. I mean, it's just that kind of perfect storm of councils desperately need money. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a licence to print money. They've, they've removed the initial kind of cap where it was meant to be twenty percent of housing stock. Yeah. Obviously it was that last December wasn't it, where they went. Ah fuck it. Do the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. You used to have to go to government cap in hand and say, can we run a scheme which they gave exceptions for Newham? Newham got a whole borough. Yeah, yeah. But you had to go to Secretary of State, didn't you? Yeah. You had to ask for an exception. Yeah. But no, you can just print the money now. It's and and and with councils the way they are, it's gonna happen. Yeah. I saw Slough announced the other day. They're looking to do every property. Yeah. Um and look I think fundamentally I think actually there will be a cleanliness to that if, you know, in five years time, if we're in a, if we're in a landscape where every rental property needs a licence, at least you will know. Yeah, yeah, I've got to have a licence. You might not understand what that licence is. Yeah. Um exactly. But yeah, so what I found really fascinating though is, um, you talked a lot in our chat before about complex compliance. Jesus Christ, you talk a lot. Um, yeah. So, so when we were having our chat and, and again, you know, having that chat really interesting because I like to think of myself as as pretty well informed on the lettings legislation, but also the tech side of things and kind of balance. And, you know, at base, a lot of what we promise to our clients is that peace of mind, the fact that we are on it, on it, we understand what all those nuances are. Mhm. Um, and I think what was really interesting in our chat is a lot of what you talked about, some of it is already in place and some of it, you know, you're obviously laying the framework for what's still to come. And I think, look, there's, there's, there's, I would estimate maybe ten to twenty percent of agents letting agents are aware of not just where we are now, but what is coming down the pipeline. The next kind of five, six, seven years. Yep. Um, and the vast majority aren't. And and the point is right, there is just more coming. Yeah. Yeah, right. We've got decent homes standard. We've got a waves, we've got mes. I mean, those are just three quick ones. And you've got and you've got increased uh, funding for councils more, more, more ability to access technology that finds problem properties. The, the, the rule that allows them, if they find a problem, they can just go into a letting agent and go, right, show me all your books and we'll find all your stuff like, like, why would you go after one? Like, for example, like, why do we work with businesses? We want to build a relationship, we want to work over time and that we can get a large amount of stock into our system. And it makes sense. Well, and also the restructuring of fines as well, right? Yeah. It's not just the landlord they can come after. Now the agent is very readily looped into that. I mean, there was culpability before, but they've made it much easier. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And every director as well, not just the business. Like you've got two directors. Five directors. Yeah. every single one of those faces are fine. It's it's it's exponential risk, right? Yeah. And it's actually on that person with inside the business. And why would you go try and find one landlord when you can find an agency that's, you know, two hundred properties. Exactly. And you can go in and rip it apart in two seconds. Like it's, it's, it's, and, and I think that a lot of people, I mean, like, I was speaking to a lawyer that I met at the weekend in the industry and she's already seeing that sort of thing over multiple councils. Oh, we've got a little nibble over here that our agency just got this audit. This landlord, etc., etc. and like we've always been in an industry where it's like, okay, so so what? Nobody's enforcing on this stuff. You know, I can't tell show me when me or the guy down the road gets a fine and then I'll. And even when they do, I mean, I shared a stat the other day from Nela about, you know, they're not even at the moment, they're not even getting half of the fines that they've issued to landlords. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah. Because again, individual orphanages, but yeah, a commercial entity. Yeah. Totally different. So. Yeah, I think, um, I think agents are getting so much thrown at them at the moment. They're getting hammered, like within lettings particularly, I think, you know, sales has got its own challenges. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course sales isn't my bag. I tend to kind of leave that to other, other more experienced people to, to work in that. But, but lettings, I think we're in this kind of perfect storm at the moment where, um. It's both a blessing and a curse. What's happening in the industry, right? What do you mean? But from like a professionalization perspective, from a professionalization perspective? Yeah, I think, I think generally I'm an advocate of compliance and regulation and, and, and technicalities in under that dream umbrella where it is fairly and evenly and effectively enforced, which doesn't exist as We know at the moment. But fundamentally, I think it's good. And I think from an agent's perspective, when you're looking at the value, why would a landlord pay us fifteen to twenty percent of their income to look after their properties for them? Mhm. Um, and if you're looking to justify that, well, the more complex, the more technical that comes coupled with very real consequences. Yeah. Um, as an industry, there is a massive opportunity for us to kind of elevate ourselves from how we are currently perceived broadly by the public as kind of this annoying kind of thing that gets in the middle and pushes rent up and, you know, just sticks a property on, on a property portal and pops a tenant. If rent doesn't go up, how is anybody going to comply to this legislation? I don't understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, you know, the the cost to tenants are categorically going to keep increasing. Yeah. Um, you know, and, and let's, let's hope, um, uh, the returning matriarch of, of legislative changes in, um, in lettings at the moment doesn't, doesn't get too trigger happy about these conversations about rent controls. And that's, that's a nightmare conversation for a totally different day. But. What I, what, what I really loved when we were sitting down, you were walking me through the platform was there aren't I don't think there are many. There aren't many products at the moment where I look at stuff. And not only is it technically sound, but I look at it and I'm like, wow, like there is an operational not gap in our business, but there is a substantial operational burden. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's like, which is you're solving the problem, which is exponentially growing. You're solving the problems. It's just that and you're getting to things and you're doing it and you're doing it over time. But if I know that you're a big advocate for technology, you know, and the way that you run your business, the way that you are in the market, the way that you run your own technology business as well. But at the end of the day, you can do all of this stuff, but you could just do it a lot easier. Yeah. And if you build that operation into the infrastructure of the business, then it's just quite it's just very much around getting the right action to the right property manager with the right information to tell the landlord, this is what you need to do, why you need to do it, how often you need to do it. And then we're not talking about twenty grand of training bills. We're not talking about admin. We're not talking about spreadsheets. We're just talking about turning up the next day and knowing what you need to do. The thing is, you see, I think the interesting thing that I had when we were going through your platform was that I'm going to slightly disagree with you in terms of I felt up until looking at your platform that, you know, a small business like, like our agency could and can and does and will manage that, that compliance complexity. But I think actually what was really interesting having our chat is, and, and as is always with these things, it's the edge cases, it's the nuances, right? That's, that's where you get caught. That's where you get tripped up. You know, we've, we've, we've had it with, I mean, they're going, they're going, but we had it with the government how to rent guide. You know, they just randomly issue a new version without really telling anyone, you know, this sort of thing. And what I found really fascinating chatting with you was you can talk about property licensing and we all fundamentally know what that is. But what was really interesting talking to you working in this space is it's the updates, it's the boundary changes. It's the fact that that council's suddenly add a new type of property license to their thing, with seemingly little or no communication on the proactive communication of, you know, oh, you're a hackney letting agent. By the way, here's our update to say this is being implemented in three months time or whatever. So I think, I think up until kind of now ish. Yeah, I would argue with you that that a smaller independent agent could, with good training and, and the right people in the business can manage it. But it's, it's technical. It is complex. It is tricky. Yeah. Can you, you can manage a bit, can you manage it profitably? Because that's the key because all of our margins are getting squeezed. So at the end of the day, it's like whether you can or you can't, um, it's, can you do it profitably? And that's the kind of the element that we're essentially trying to solve. Yeah. And look, I think I think the fascinating thing with and this is probably one of the first podcasts we're doing where I'm talking a lot about product. I mean, it's the first one where I've done a demo before going straight onto the podcast. Good. That's good. But, but I don't normally talk about product, but I think seeing your guys platform, you know, it, it's a bit of an eye opener. Like I said, like we, we believe ourselves. We have faith in ourselves to be a highly effective technical agent. We also are very proactive in looking at where the market's going. And that's partly probably because of the tech business as well. You need to know where it's going. But you know, we go to Tlic meetings and all this sort of stuff. So we know what the government are kind of planning. We, we know that there's like seven I think there's currently like seven big pieces of legislation coming down the line in the next like seven to ten years, there's going to be more chucked in there as well. That's not going to be all there is. And all of that is just layering and layering and layering on top of this stuff. And I think the overlaps and technicalities, and we're also going to have tweaks to the Renters Rights Act as this goes on, as case studies come through and they and they learn things and need to tweak and adjust, we're going to have that adjustment within the space as well. I think I actually think we're getting to a point where the big boys could do it manually because they've got the resource, but why the fuck would they want to? But but they could. I genuinely think we're getting to a point in lettings where I I'm not sure that a small outfit like ours, like a one two branch, like five to ten person team lettings operation, I don't know, I feel like we're at the cusp and definitely within the next kind of two or three years. I think we're getting to a point where I think it will be almost impossible to do that manually. Yeah, yeah. And and be one hundred percent compliant. Yeah. Um, I think the amount of iterations changes, like I said, overlaying complexity, um, is, is it's going to be tech or it's going to be scale. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and I, you know, and I don't think there's a middle in there. And like I said, like my, my understanding of, you know, up until this morning was at a very high level, like, oh, it's property licensing. And I got, I got the value in that, you know, I was talking to you. Yeah, we've got a landlord, thankfully, a landlord who we warned, but we've got a landlord at the moment who's in a sticky situation with, with, uh, a new licensing scheme that he wasn't on top of, um, you know, and I'd kind of come into the meeting being like, oh, you know, it would, it would be nice. It would be a peace of mind just to have that running and being like, oh, by the way. Yeah. Um, but I think what was really fascinating talking with you and looking at the reports, and I'm not going to do a full fucking pitch on the podcast, but but the reports and stuff you put through, as well as kind of getting ourselves to where we've where we've got to as a business. And again, this is talking about base and part of that journey the last few years as well has been about educating and informing landlords. Yeah. So we had a really interesting bit in the demo where, where you were talking about a feature to me about these beautiful, highly technical reports you do. And you were like, ah, but you know, you don't need to send those to your managers, landlords. And I was like, you know, I stopped you and was like, actually couldn't disagree more. Like, yeah, great that we educate our lower service clients on what they need to be doing. And, and either they do it or that maybe means they, they reconsider a higher level of service with us. But I think, like I said, agents have this constant battle of trying to prove our value. And I think one of the problems you have when you're a good agent, one of the biggest problems you have is you make it look too fucking easy. Yeah. But you know, whether that's sales or lettings. Yeah, yeah. You know, we've all seen it. You know, where a sales agent launches a property that the last two agents haven't been able to sell. You know, and they go to market within three days. They've had fifty people through the door. They've got three offers above asking price. Yeah. And you know, and then the vendor turns around and it's like, oh, but, you know, but you've done that really quick. Like, do I have to pay you two percent? And it's like, yeah, yeah. Because the one percent you were going to pay the last two didn't get you. So it's, you know, we've, we've had this before with landlords. I've talked about it on a previous podcast, one of, one of our larger portfolio landlords that we look after. I remember a few years ago, him, like he'd asked us, he'd bought a couple of properties in Oxford and he was like, would you look after him? We were like, absolutely not, we're London. No. Um, but he called us like a couple of weeks later, like really proud of himself because he'd let them himself. And I was like, cool, cool, cool. Really happy for you. Yeah. Let me look after you. Let me just run through it. And that phone call was a real eye opener for us because as I went through this list of have you done this and have you done that? And when you did that, did you do this and have you done that? And have you checked that? And there was about a third of the way through the list. He went, you do this on every single one of my properties. I was like, we ain't finished yet. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Um, landlords don't know what they don't know. Yeah. I think one thing and that's in terms of technicality, but also what you're doing, you know, I think interesting you picked up there earlier on about that. We have a we have a potential client that's speaking to the council and they says, oh, we don't know if you need your service because the council have been really helpful. It's like, yeah, sure. So when because they want to know which fifty tenancies aren't compliant. Exactly. Who goes to the police and tells and tells them about all the problems that are happening out there. Um, so I've got this criminal empire. Exactly. That's that's what's going on. So yeah, councils are, are, are trying to engage with landlords, trying to engage with letting agents. And I, and I, and I get that. But at the end of the day, especially from a letting agents perspective, everything's rosy in the garden, then your landlord doesn't do something and then the council know. And it's happened so many times where they know that that property is to be licensed because you just told them about it. And then in two months it's like, oh yeah. So we gave you a bit of time. Uh, and so, so now we're just going to enforce on it. But yeah, but our landlords not communicating with us because he's abroad and he's not going to pay this and that. And they're like, yeah, but you're contracted to manage the property. So, so, so here's your, it's, it's a mandatory piece of compliance. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's wild. It really is. Um, so, so like, I, yeah, just a warning about how friendly councils can be. But look, and I think, I think also, you know, I said for landlords, what they don't know, they don't know. Again, also within agencies, you know, we look let let's face certain truths. We know that there is not enough training in our industry. There are there are there are agents operating within our sector who have a very basic technical knowledge of the compliance elements. And whereas up until fairly recently, it's not necessarily right. But you could kind of based on enforcement, you could kind of dice roll and be like, ah, you know, as long as you're looking after the big ticket stuff, the likelihood that you're going to get slammed. I think now a, the likelihood you're going to get slammed is, is exponentially rising. Plus, as we, you know, you've got the powers of a council to come in and literally just order you to cease trading. Yeah. They don't have to give a reason, as we know, because that came in in December, wasn't it? That was the first implementation, the Renters Rights Act that came in in, uh, in December, just before Christmas. Joyously. What a Christmas present that was. Um, not that I've heard of it. I haven't heard of it happen yet. Have you, have you heard of a council actually walk into an agency yet under those new powers. Um so, so not directly, not that I expected to name who they are. Not directly. No, but I was speaking to a property lawyer, uh, at the weekend and she's seen it happen. Uh, so, so, so yeah, I think that the, I get it like I run a business, I know that there's loads of rules we need to go all to comply to. Uh, and, and yeah, it's like, okay, we're, let's pick the ones where I've seen other people get enforced on it. And, and, and that's all that's been the case. I was like, why do I need to do this? Because I've not had a finding nobody else that I find that I can see. And then you can see that all that won't affect me, then you're taking a little bit more risk. But now where we are is that the powers have changed. The, the, the money for enforcement and change and appetite has changed as in councils need money. And look, and I think again, coming back to agents like what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. And if you're not going on constant technical training courses, if you're not turning up to the Quarterly Lettings Industry Council briefings where you get briefings, as you know, we've we've been both been to them many a time. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I enjoy going both as a supplier and as an agent because it is, you know, getting briefings direct from the likes of Lord best and Mhclg and all that sort of stuff. It's nice to know where their heads at and what's coming. Especially when we're rather than waiting to hit your desk, having that kind of like knowledge of the journey along the road and where it came from and how it's all put together really helps you. Well, we've, you know, as an industry, we've got to stop being as reactive as we are. Yeah. We're not great at being like, ah, this is where the industry's going. Great. Let's be prepared before it happens. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think the Renter's Rights Act is a perfect example of that. You know, I can name several Facebook and WhatsApp groups I've been in immediately before and immediately after that, where there were agents being like, anyone got a tenancy agreement they can share? Anyone got business terms they can share? Or, you know, we used to charge renewal fees. What's everyone doing about this now? Like we've got to get better at being like, right. That that's coming in six months, twelve months, eighteen months, two years. What is our path through that? And I think, yeah, and I, and I think with compliance, I think a lot of, I think a lot of letting agents and again, because they start small with small books and when you're looking after five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty properties, yeah, it's really hard to have that architecture in your business. Yeah. And it's knowing, as you say, it's knowing what to when to start that journey, but then what to adopt first. Like I went into a franchise of, of one of the major partners that we've got. And I could see the sheer panic in his face that he needed to talk about some other solution. Um, but I also was in his office where him and another five people were just having a laugh. And I was like, cool, so what are we talking like, you know, six times sixty grand, you know, bums on seat cost in London, you know, uh, but but but you, you don't understand the technology or any, you know, you're not adopting technology a certain level. You like to see these people in front of you doing something which they weren't, uh, and, and they were costing a hell of a lot of money. And, and so like, I can see that it's from, especially from a small business perspective, it's like, it's a huge amount of comprehension. As you say, you see the enterprise level businesses, uh, obviously Lowman just converted over to, to, you know, and we've rolled it out, which is super interesting because it's an enterprise business, but it's local businesses that are operating independently in a lot of ways. Uh, and, and it's really interesting to see how they all do. A lot of them are businesses within businesses. Yeah, yeah. You've got your executive board, which is chief strategy, but fundamentally, yeah. Yeah. Um, and particularly within some of the franchise businesses as well. I mean, you know, it's well known that Winkworth give their, give their franchisees pretty much full scope of have what CRM you want have what partner you want you do you, you build your business, you know? Yeah. So yeah, there's lots of lots of different bits and pieces there. So look, we are pretty much out of time already that that has, that has flown by our little half hour short one. But um look, I think um I was fascinated this morning. I really um yeah, I really loved it was, it was a lot more technical and a lot more detailed than I was expecting. And I, like I said, I don't know why I expected less, but I think, um, probably because I'm used to both as an agent, but also a lot of suppliers as well are reactive. Yeah. You know, again, looking at the Renters Rights Act, you know, there were quite a lot of suppliers that were releasing stuff quite close to the implementation. Yeah. Um, you know, I've been talking to various suppliers about making tax digital like that. We've known about for a while that our industry has been a bit lackluster at really having really good solutions for that. So I think, I think what was, what was interesting for me seeing your one was it was dealing with what's now property licensing, H h s r s, all that sort of stuff. But I can see on your roadmap and all the stuff built in, you know, you've already got features leaning towards Awaabs and me's and decent homes standards and. Yeah. And you know, there is, there is so much information we're going to have to relay to landlords now in a very clear and technical way. And also the other thing I didn't realise as well, which we haven't touched on because we just haven't had enough time. I also thought you were very much just a licensing compliance facilitation platform in a technical like, here's the problem. Now go and solve it. What I also didn't realize is that you guys are actually also one of, you know, a large part of your offering is also you have the solutions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for every problem, we have a solution for it. Yeah. Um, I think that the, the, as you say, it's easier to talk about licensing. Uh, but then you have the, the next step. So we've got to get planning in a good place. We've got fire safety, we've got the building safety, how you're looking. And again, all these things come into it and how they cross over to a flat and a house. It's, it's, it's, it is overwhelming. And again, coming back to smaller businesses, it's that thing of, again, if you're a, if you're a big if you're a big business, you know, you're gonna have five hundred properties that need a fire rated door installed, you're going to have scale. So you're going to be able to go to a contractor and go, dude, in the next year, we need five hundred fire doors installed. Great. You're running a portfolio of forty. You need one fire door installed. Yeah. It's. Yeah. How much time are you going to find? Finding that contractor. And as we talked briefly again before it, you know, knowing which contract getting getting your local chippy to go and stick in a door from being Q isn't really going to cut the mustard. Um, you know, and, and so it's not just identifying it, I yeah. Again, that was another real surprise to me is I had no idea you guys had this kind of resolution framework. Yeah, yeah. Which again, I think for agents, what scares them is they know, we know as agents that we need to have our head around this stuff. But it's that it's that can of worms, right? It's like, I almost don't want to know that has a, I've got four hundred compliance issues that I now need to sort out, but I also have no idea who the hell I'm going to use to, to actually fix two hundred of those. Yeah. Well, no, you know, now now you know. So, dude, look, we've run out of time. I would have loved to have talked more. Um, and, uh, yeah, like I said, it's very different one for me because I haven't talked a lot about product on these, but I felt like we couldn't not, um, other suppliers don't go getting ideas. Uh. The other episodes will be going back a lot more chatty, but, um, honestly, if you're a letting agent or in any way involved in lettings and property management and you're watching this, um, have a look, uh, it will scare the daylights out of you. But like I said, the nice thing that came with that is, is, is that solution. And I was saying to you, you know, and, and, and I as partners, we were literally having a conversation yesterday and she wasn't even aware we were doing the demo and chat today about our business and the complexity of what we now do and, and how that is, is just going to keep getting more complex. And what that means for us as a business and how we charge our clients. Mhm. I get that. Um, you know, it's got to be the charging the clients thing is a big thing. It's, it's such a difficult time. Uh, because, um, you, there's an exponential amount of work that needs to happen. But as you say, it's like, okay, so we might have to charge landlords more money when we have licensable and, and more complex properties. Uh, but it's how we relay that value to them. You know, as you said, like, so yeah, I, my feedback from, from some agents, oh, I don't want to show them this or blah, blah, blah, but your feedback was no, let's show them it. Let's, let's, let's ensure that they know, uh, that, that, that what we're taking care of, why we're taking care of it, why we need to do it, why they need us. Oh, I don't need to train my team because I've got the answers, and I can just tell them that this alarm system is going in a lot. I mean, that still train your team. Yeah, yeah. But they still train. I would, I would, I would never supplement but you can't, you can't, you literally can't to the level that you need to this level. No, you won't be able to train the team to the technical ability like a technical technical team, but like they have to have a training of understanding, of course, but, but to, to go into the nuance of it is a full compliance role. Like I spent my entire eight and a half years trying to convince people that I'm not an expert because an expert in licensing is an environmental health officer accredited by the charities Environmental Health. Full stop, same tea party planners, if fire risk assessor. These are all independent accreditations and independent expertise. Nobody is an expert in all of them, but we can have a. We can have the right systems, the right process, and our basic understanding. So when you say something to a landlord, the landlord doesn't like I'm doesn't sound right. You're saying it with conviction, with knowledge, with expertise, with the right information at your fingertips. That's what led to Orlando goes, oh no, I this person is saying it with conviction. I know what I know what they know what they're talking about. I won't challenge that. I know what they're trying to do to keep me safe. Yeah. Nice. Well, yeah, like I said, guys, if you are in any way involved in this business, if you're not, if you haven't already taken a look at, you know, make this busy man even busier, um, take a look. Uh, it will slightly scare you, but also it will give you a bit of peace of mind about maybe something you've been dancing around for a little while. Um, I know I'm going to be having a very serious chat with Anne this afternoon. Um, dude, it's been a pleasure. It's actually been knowing you for a few years. It's been really nice. Eh, I didn't know your your developer background, so that was nice to know. You might have probably told me at some events where I was seriously more inebriated than you were as a teetotal human being. No, it was really interesting to sit and have and go away from the, the, the, the industry networking event versions of ourselves and actually be, uh, professional gentlemen. Exactly, exactly. Makes a nice change. But yeah, no, honestly, uh, if you work in lettings, have a little look, I think probably the only thing you might regret is the fact it's going to scare the bejesus out of you, but you need to know what you don't know. You need to know where the risk is in your business. Um, and yeah, it's I can't think of anything else that's, that's gonna, um, eliminate or massively reduce risk within your business right now. And what is a very, very challenging landscape for us all. So dude, it's been an absolute pleasure. Sorry we didn't have more time. Um, yeah. Cheers, guys. Hope you like it. Do check it out. Um, you know, uh, come back with comments. Um, spread the word because, uh, we all need tools that help us get through the day to day. And this is a big one, so cheers, buddy. Thank you guys. See you next time. Bye. See you later.