Success Doesn't Come From Staying Comfortable with Verona Frankish

What does great leadership actually look like?

Is it having all the answers? Being the loudest voice in the room? Always appearing confident? Or is it something much simpler- and much harder- than that?

In this episode of The Viking Chats, I'm joined by Verona Frankish, CEO of Yopa and Chair of Women in Estate Agency (WIEA), for a conversation that starts with career progression but quickly becomes something far more interesting.

Because Verona's journey to leading one of the UK's best-known estate agency brands wasn't built on having all the answers. It was built on a willingness to keep stepping into situations where she didn't.

From her early career in retail and financial services, through Mortgage Advice Bureau, Purplebricks and ultimately to the CEO role at Yopa, Verona has consistently chosen growth over comfort. Time and again she has taken on responsibilities she wasn't an expert in, surrounded herself with people who knew more than she did, and focused on creating environments where those people could thrive.

It's a refreshing perspective on leadership that feels increasingly relevant in today's world.

We talk openly about the misconception that great leaders need to be the smartest person in the room, why building teams of genuine experts is one of the greatest strengths a leader can possess, and how psychological safety transforms both businesses and the people within them.

Verona also shares the personal values that have guided her career, including the difficult decision to walk away from a senior role when the direction of the business no longer aligned with her own principles. It's an honest discussion about integrity, knowing what matters to you and recognising that success isn't simply about reaching the top- it's about being able to look yourself in the mirror when you get there.

A significant part of the conversation focuses on Women in Estate Agency, an organisation that has grown from a small Facebook community during the pandemic into one of the industry's most influential movements. Verona explains how WIEA evolved, why its annual event feels so different from traditional conferences, and why creating spaces where people feel seen, heard and valued has become such an important part of her life.

What becomes clear is that WIEA has never really been about women versus men. It's about helping people find the confidence to use their voice, challenge their own assumptions and realise they are capable of far more than they perhaps believed.

Along the way we also discuss hybrid estate agency, leading national businesses, balancing demanding careers with family life, the lessons COVID unexpectedly taught many leaders, and why stepping outside your comfort zone is a skill that can be developed rather than a personality trait you're simply born with.

One of my favourite moments in the episode comes when Verona talks about becoming CEO. Despite reaching one of the highest leadership positions in the industry, she still describes herself simply as "a Derry girl doing her best." That humility, combined with an unwavering commitment to authenticity, runs through the entire conversation.

Whether you're leading a business, managing a team or simply wondering what the next chapter of your own career might look like, there is something in this episode that will resonate.

Because success rarely comes from staying comfortable.

It comes from being willing to take the next step, even when you don't yet know exactly where it will lead.

Transcript

Kristjan (Host): Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chats podcast. I'm delighted to be joined today by none other than Verona Frankish, CEO of Yopa. 

Verona Frankish: Good to see you.

Kristjan: So good to see you again. Thanks for joining me today. 

Verona: You're welcome. You're welcome.

Kristjan: We eventually lured you down to Shoreditch.

Verona: I know, it's taken a wee while, but we got there.

Kristjan: Well it's fair enough when you're running a nationwide operation, you know, don't always have that much time in your diary to pop into a cocktail dungeon...

Verona: It's not the usual setup for a pod, I'm not going to lie.

Kristjan: This isn't what your average estate agent back room looks like? 

Verona: No. No.

Kristjan: So look, obviously you and I have got to know each other fairly well over the last few years. But for anyone living under a rock, can you just give us a little bit about who you are and what you do now, and then we're going to delve a little bit into your back story.

Verona: Sure. So today, and for the last four and a half years, I have been the CEO of Yopa, which is a national hybrid estate agency. Tech-enabled, no high street offices, but offering a wide range of products and services to our customers. In addition to that, I am the chair of the Board of Women in Estate Agency and have been for just over three years now. 

Kristjan: Which is really how you and I got to know each other. 

Verona: It is, yeah, absolutely.

Kristjan: And I guess a number of events and different things over the calendar years. 

Verona: Yeah, so I've been in property about seven and a half years now, I would say, but the chunk of that being at Yopa with a couple of breaks previously. 

The Transition from Financial Services to Property

Kristjan: So not long before Yopa. 

Verona: No, no. So I moved into property from financial services. I was at Mortgage Advice Bureau for about eight or nine years. 

Kristjan: Ah, okay. So a lot of people know that's a serious business. 

Verona: Phenomenal business. Phenomenal business. Yeah, and I learned a lot at that business. And when I was there, my job was head of business development. What that meant was I reported directly into Peter, the CEO, and he is full of ideas, he's a real archetypal entrepreneur, lots of innovative ideas. And my role essentially was to take his 300 crazy ideas a week...

Kristjan: And find the three that were really good. 

Verona: And distil them down into practical projects and processes that could work and have business application and enterprise value. One of those projects that I worked on was Purplebricks. So how do we unlock the mortgage potential from this new PropTech model? So that was kind of my step into the property sector per se.

Kristjan: I mean interesting, for a lot of large nationwide operations, I mean financial services is a huge part of that business.

Verona: Essential. Essential.

Kristjan: Yeah. So it's quite interesting coming at it from that kind of background, to me makes sense from a large operational kind of view.

Verona: Yes, completely. So I actually went to Purplebricks as the mortgages director. So from 15 years in that part of the industry. And then went into mortgages, but very quickly when I was there, a lot changed. A lot changed. So then my portfolio expanded to conveyancing, and lettings of all things.

Kristjan: Ah that's... conveyancing I get, lettings interesting that that ended up on your plate.

Verona: Well, it was kind of... it wasn't because I was an expert in lettings by any stretch of the imagination. It was because Vic Darvey was appointed CEO and they had a lot of change in the executive leadership team. So I predated him, I joined the business before he did. I guess he trusted my delivery and what I was doing, and he wanted to really kind of align responsibilities in all the key parts of the business. So he asked me to look after lettings. And I said I'm more than happy to do it. I'm very much, and always have been, a person who has stepped out of their comfort zone on a very regular basis. I love challenging myself, I love learning new things. I'm really not afraid to say "I don't understand this" or "I don't know much about this, I'm always willing to learn." So I said I don't know much about it, but I'm really happy to dive in.

Stepping Out of the Comfort Zone

Kristjan: Which we'll delve into a bit more later, because those are not typical characteristics or not that we typically hear about particularly women in the workplace and particularly at senior level. 

Verona: Yeah, I mean look, it depends on the environment, right? And a psychologically safe environment is incredibly important. At that time that place was not a psychologically safe environment. So, and therefore what that does to one in a mentally, physically, and all the other manifestations of how you feel about that, then I'm pretty good at recognizing myself when things aren't right for me. For me.

Kristjan: So you decided to leave, you were like... 

Verona: It was a mutual decision Kristjan, frankly, it was a mutual decision. The business was going in a direction that I was not comfortable with, and I'm the sort of person that stands by my values and my principles.

Kristjan: Again, not something typical at senior level.

Verona: Yeah, I mean look, it depends on the environment, right? So I had a break. I was doing some consultancy for people that had approached me. I had a lot of conversations with businesses at the time, a lot of offers, and I wanted to be very intentional about what I did next.

Kristjan: It doesn't sound like you were in a rush.

Verona: I was not in a rush. I was 51... I mean I guess 51. I'd been in three different sectors at that point. I'd always been in leadership roles, always. And I'd been in retail, financial services, and then property. And I was very open to what the next path or the next chapter could be. But I was very clear that I wanted the next chapter to be my last kind of big gig, meaningful gig. 

Kristjan: The big one. And it needed the principles and values that you could completely buy into.

Verona: Exactly. The right environment, the right team, the right people, all of those things were really important to me. So whatever sector they were in was largely irrelevant. It was more about the right environment and the right opportunity.

Building a Team of Experts

Kristjan: And I think this is the interesting thing when you get to executive level operated businesses. I think this is something an agency because the vast majority of us are small operations. Like we have with base, one, two, three branches, small teams, living and breathing estate agency is everything. And I think you quite often see flippant comments, and I'm sure I've made some particularly historically in the past, about a CEO stepping in with zero background in property and you're like, "Oh Christ, here we go again, let's see what the roller coaster ride is with that." But I think the reality is an executive level you're not technically needing to necessarily understand property law or lettings legislation. You're there to drive the business forward in terms of its key objectives, and that's what you have an incredible team for. You've got your lettings expert, you've got your...

Verona: Exactly. So if I look at my team now, everybody in my function that leads each of my functions in the business are all experts in their area. I am not experts in any one of those areas. So I'm not an expert estate agent. Tom Greenacre leads our franchise operation, our associate model. He is an absolute estate agent expert and has been in leadership roles and done the job across various different models and brands. And I lean to him in a lot of instances. Now, of course, over the years you build up that level of expertise and look, I'm not saying I'm completely green in that regard...

Kristjan: But look, there's nothing wrong with having a team of experts, right? 

Verona: Absolutely. And they're all better at each individual function than I ever would be. And that's the thing I think with a bigger business, or at least a business that has bigger aspirations...

The Journey to Becoming CEO

Kristjan: And surely the excitement of being in that most senior role that you hadn't envisioned for yourself...

Verona: Yes, for sure. For sure. Achieving something that I hadn't ever thought about.

Kristjan: And getting that being your authentic self as well.

Verona: Yeah.

Kristjan: That's a lot of ticks in the box from what you want from a role and an opportunity.

Verona: For sure. And it's interesting actually because someone asked me previously, "Whenever you got that job, you know, how did you celebrate? Was it a big deal?" And there was an element of that. What was really cute actually, my kids... I've got three children. Back then, Evie's now 22 this month, so four years ago she would have been 17, 18. Max would have been 15, and Lily would have been 11. And they were so pumped that I was even in the final... I ended up being in the final two, and I had to go to the board and do a presentation in Savills' boardroom. This biggest, longest boardroom table I've ever seen in my life. And you know, and I'm just like, in my head, always, I'm just a Derry girl, right? This is who I am. I don't pretend to be anybody else or anything different. I'm just a Derry girl doing my best. And I'm in this big boardroom and I'm just doing me. And I was going down for this presentation and my kids were sending me texts, you know, "Badass mum, this is amazing, you're going to nail it." And I almost wanted it more for them than for myself.

Kristjan: But that's so sweet that they were engaged because I think we have a lot of conversations about family and demanding careers and all this sort of stuff. But I think there's also an attitude, I think particularly with kids going into their teenage years, that they're not really interested in what mum and dad do. 

Verona: My kids are not like that. They're very engaged. Yeah.

Kristjan: Do you know what changed that and their engagement level? Because for a long period of time, we were both... my husband's been in financial services his entire life. He now is really fortunate to do a wonderful job which is giving back. He now runs the MAP Foundation, which is their charitable foundation... So we've been in financial services for a long time. And during COVID, you'll be able to recognize this I'm sure, we all took a pause and we all stepped off the treadmill for a period of our days. I was at Purplebricks at the time, I didn't have one day of furlough. I worked harder in my life...

Kristjan: I was going to say, like, not me and Ann! So we launched Depository two weeks before Covid. 

Verona: Oh wow, great timing. 

Kristjan: Yeah, I mean that was fun. And like you said, we furloughed everyone, topped up everyone's salary, but Ann and I were like, well we're not going anywhere. We took a big pay cut. We all took a chunk... 

Verona: Right in our salaries, yeah, we were like, "Goodbye dividends." We don't know where the business is going. 

Kristjan: And yeah, it's funny when I talk to people who are like, "Oh, you know, looking back, was COVID glorious? Lying in the garden..." and I was like, I never got that bit of Covid! I was flat out...

Verona: We were, but here's the thing. And I know you live close by where you work. I was traveling around the country in and out of Solihull on a daily basis. And what it did do was we didn't have to do that physical travel. So we were working remotely, and it was a complete change of pace and operation. But it meant that we did a walk in the morning and a walk in the evening with the children. And the weather if you remember was outstanding, the weather was beautiful. So we spent a lot of time on those walks. Because as a family we were talking about things that we would never have talked about before.

Kristjan: Because of the seriousness of the situation at the time, it kind of made you be like, we need to have the big conversations. 

Verona: Absolutely. We need to talk about the serious shit. Because it was like, what is a mortgage? So tell me, what is Mortgage Advice Bureau? What do you do? What's your job, Mum? What's your job, Dad? What is a mortgage? How does protection work? What is life and critical illness? So we were having all of these conversations and then they were observing because we were working from home, the conversations that we were having. We moved the entire Purplebricks business from head office remote in a matter of days. And you know, that in itself was phenomenal. And them understanding how businesses operate and the challenges financially and the challenges in the market, then there was SDLT, Stamp Duty relief, and then the whole thing opened up... So during that time, I think that escalated and accelerated the pace of their understanding of what Mum and Dad did.

Women in Estate Agency (WIEA) & Making an Impact

Kristjan: So look, I'm very much aware we're on a limited clock today. So I do want to make sure we talk a little bit about WIEA.

Verona: Mmhmm. 

Kristjan: So, yet again for those living under a rock that we've introduced you to at the start of the session, for those who are unaware of what WIEA is...

Verona: Women in Estate Agency, or affectionately known as WIEA, started out as a Facebook group. Co-founded by Liana Loporto-Browne and Claire Hughes during the time of COVID. Fabulous human beings, both inspirational in very different ways. Both incredibly inspirational women. They started a Facebook group, very small, they didn't have big aspirations I don't think that it would come to anywhere near what it is today... to try and connect women around the country who were facing different challenges, business challenges, family challenges, mental health challenges. That Facebook group then grew to a few hundred. I was one of the very early adopters. They also then had a very small podcast back in the day and they interviewed me for the podcast. And it sort of grew to maybe 800 individuals in the Facebook group. 

And then at that time, we decided to form... there was a group of what I would call the louder voices. People who really adopted it.

Kristjan: Top contributors, I think they flag them as in groups.

Verona: Absolutely. But people who believed we could go beyond a Facebook group. Who drove the conversation, who started asking the bigger questions. Like, can we do more with this?

And what happened was as we came out of COVID, we thought, "We should get this community together. It's a phenomenal community. Bring it out of the Facebook group." So we arranged our first conference in March 2022. And we had it in a little venue that held 250 people. And I think we sort of muddled it together. We got, bizarrely, we managed to convince a number of sponsors to support us. We managed to convince a lot of people to speak very authentically and very vulnerably on our stage. 

And I remember halfway through the day, we had this idea of it being different from a traditional event. And I remember halfway through the day saying to Liana, "Jesus, this is really working. Like this is exactly how we envisioned it, and it's landing, and people are engaging with it." By 11 o'clock half the audience were in tears. So it was an emotional way. 

Kristjan: In a good way. In a great way. 

Verona: Yeah, yeah. I mean, in an emotional way. But very much a connection way. And which demonstrated that we were touching something quite different and quite unique in the industry.

So, and I'll never forget, I said to my EA, my Yopa EA the day before, "We haven't booked an after-event or party or anything" because we were just trying to pull off this conference in the day. "Can you see near the venue if there's like a top floor of a pub or something that we can go to afterwards and just debrief? Somewhere that holds maybe 50 people. Maybe if we get 10 or 20 people to come, great." We put 200 quid behind the bar, I'll never forget. So we said at the end of the conference, "If you want to come and join us for a debrief, we're going to be at this pub." When I walked in, it was jam-packed. It was spilling down to the pub, it was spilling outdoors, luckily it was a beautiful day. And we were just overwhelmed by the support, by the energy, by the feedback, and we then knew this is something really special.

The Future of WIEA & The Power of Support

Kristjan: So four years later... Oh, in the meantime we formed a committee. Claire and Liana asked me to chair that committee with the support of the wider committee. And then we basically signposted that every year we do a conference. We then evolved that into leadership training because we recognized that the conference wasn't actually a conference, hence why we called our recent one "Not A Conference." It was more like empowerment, it was more about motivation, it was more about understanding what women can bring to the party and giving them the confidence to use their voice and space to do so. And therefore we wanted to do that in smaller groups. 

So that has evolved into leadership training, which is now supported by Rightmove, delivered by two also incredible females, Jo Bourne and Claire Yates. Wonderful, wonderful trainers. And you know, we're literally... I had a meeting with them this week, we're now going to extend that for the next two years. We have a two-year... we're just finishing our negotiations with Rightmove for another two years support. There are primary financial partners. And we have so much support from so many other incredible suppliers, including yourselves, right across the industry. 

And you know, honestly Kristjan, it is one of the proudest things in my life to be involved with and to have helped in some small way shape and change the industry's view of women, what women can bring to the table, to improve how individual women feel about themselves. And I see them every single day step into whether it's putting themselves on a video on social media, whether it's starting up a business, whether it's advocating for themselves in a difficult conversation, whatever it is. Every single step that they take towards saying to someone, "I'm not going to be silenced, I'm not going to be undervalued, I'm not going to devalue myself, I am worthy of this space, of this voice, of this platform, of this job." And it is phenomenal. Genuinely phenomenal. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it.

Kristjan: I mean I remember, so I don't think I was aware of the first one because I think that was very much ladies only. 

Verona: It wasn't, but we probably didn't promote as much that men were welcome. We had maybe less than 10% of men at that one...

Kristjan: Yeah, because I can't remember if I was at that first one or not. Because the telling of the pub sounds familiar. 

Verona: It was in a... the room was like layered and there was a... it was like a cobbled mews street. 

Kristjan: Yes! It was. Yes, so I was there. So it was there. There we go. So yeah, I remember being there. Yes I guess that was four years ago. 

Verona: I know, crazy. 

Kristjan: I think, you know, as you alluded to, and as is no secret to anyone, you and I both like an industry event. 

Verona: We do. We like meeting people. Networking, collaborating, all that stuff. 

Kristjan: And I think that's a really important point, right? Because we talk about the events... 99% of why I go is the people that I see there. Not who's talking on the stage, not which suppliers have a stand there. I'm really sorry guys. But it is the people you see and the conversations you have in the room. And I think without maybe targeting that, because you guys approached it from a different point of view, what was instantly apparent from your very first event was that it was this seismically different event. There was no "Here's how you increase your instructions" or "Here's how you increase your fees."

Verona: And there is a place for that. And there's other events that do that. And I put on an end-of-year boring voice because just to wind people up really... But look, there is absolutely a place for that and there is already a lot of resource for that. We see that at pretty much all the other events. You can go on YouTube, you can... there are so many places where you can go and educate yourself. You can hire a coach to come into your business and teach you how to be a better door knocker or how to be a better valuer or whatever it is. And I think what was really apparent instantly from your very first event was the fact that the conversation was radically different. It wasn't about the technicalities of the job, it was about the person that turns up to do it.

Verona: Absolutely. It's what's in here [head] and that has an impact on your ability to do your job. But what's in here [heart] and in here [head] massively changes how we each approach our job. You know, you talked to me earlier about my approach to change and my approach to stepping into discomfort. I haven't always been like that. I've had to train those muscles over the years and the more I've done it, the more confident I've become in doing so. And that's what it's about, you know, for anybody. 

The Path Forward

Kristjan: See, interestingly, I find personally doing new things, as scary as they are, I like scary things that are new because there's kind of no preconception. I find a kind of framed opportunity, like "Oh, you're built for this role and you're going to absolutely smash it, 'cause all you have to do is XYZ." That I find a lot more intimidating. Because it's like, "Oh, it's basically handed on a plate, and if I do XYZ I'm going to achieve that. And if I don't, everyone's going to be like, 'how did he fuck that up?'" You know? Whereas, yeah, for me, I find what other people will often find more scary because of the unknowns, I find those way more exciting. 

Verona: Going back to Covid, it's a really interesting one. Like, a lot of people really didn't know, particularly in the early days, how to address that. For me there was total clarity. Like when that hit, it was like right, everyone is furloughed, this is what we're doing. You know, I sat down with Anne and I said, right, first thing we're doing is we're sending an email to every tenant going, "We've got you." And I don't think she'll mind me saying this, she went, "Sorry, you want to do what?" And I went, "We're going to send an email to every tenant, I was like, landlords as well, obviously, but I was like, right now, it's the tenants that like us are shitting bricks about, 'do I have a salary, and if I don't have a salary, how the f*** am I paying my rent, and if I can't pay my rent, where am I living?'" And what does that mean.

And you know, I think literally a day after lockdown we send an email out to our entire tenant database going, "We've got you. We have no idea what's coming. We've got no idea how we're going to navigate it, but we're all in it together. So you've got a problem, you get afraid, you come and talk to us. We can't promise anything other than we'll talk to your landlord and we'll find a way to make it work."

Kristjan: Well look, we've run out of time. Because of my very busy diary today, we could have talked a lot longer as I often do, but it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for schlepping over to Shoreditch.

Verona: You're very welcome, enjoyed it. 

Kristjan: It's been a joy. Guys, thank you very much. Hopefully a great one. Do please go to the WIEA website and check out, find out more about the partnerships and hopefully get your business or talk to your manager or director if it's not your business, about getting on board. Huge value. If you haven't yet been to the annual WIEA event, I mean you've missed it for this year, but preparations for next year are well underway. Set aside some budget for tickets for next year and again, if you can take your whole team, do, but if you can't, try and send a blend of women and men to the event. Maybe lean into the women percentage, but definitely have a couple of the boys attend as well because it really is an event where everybody walks away learning something and it genuinely is something truly different. So it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for joining me today.

Verona: Thank you. Bye guys. See you soon.